flazeda_warrior 73 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 https://getpocket.com/explore/item/this-cartoon-explains-why-elon-musk-thinks-we-re-characters-in-a-computer-simulation-he-might-be the tl;dr: Quote What do you think? It better illustrates determinism vs free will for me. The simulated us being deterministic, and our consciousness can be separate from the simulated when "free will" is practiced. free will being something "out of character"... This makes me miss Rick and Morty... when is there a new season lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
James Skywalker 528 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 You are a computer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vini 430 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) We will never know. First we have to prove that we're capable of simulating worlds indistinguishable from out reality. And then chances of us being in base reality decrease significantly. But even then how would we ever know for sure. Maybe AI will tell us The free will "outside" of the simulation could also be part of a larger simulation . In order for us to be truly non deterministic on some level I think you have to invoke something divine and transcendent that exists outside of the simulation itself. And it has to be conscious. Otherwise I don't see free being real whether we're in a simulation or not. Edited May 17, 2019 by Vini 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spicalicious 128 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 beep bop boop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kaz 2,439 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 did someone hack into your AI? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kokujin 558 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) We don't know. I have free will against my emotions. Why are some basketball players better than others? Free will. & Practice of free will. Edited May 17, 2019 by kokujin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teh_Diplomat 2,054 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 Seems legit... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flazeda_warrior 73 Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 On 2019-05-16 at 10:58 PM, Vini said: We will never know. First we have to prove that we're capable of simulating worlds indistinguishable from out reality. And then chances of us being in base reality decrease significantly. But even then how would we ever know for sure. Maybe AI will tell us The free will "outside" of the simulation could also be part of a larger simulation . In order for us to be truly non deterministic on some level I think you have to invoke something divine and transcendent that exists outside of the simulation itself. And it has to be conscious. Otherwise I don't see free being real whether we're in a simulation or not. simulated worlds indistinguishable from reality are easily achievable and arguably already done so. Agreed on it having to be conscious. Don't get your last sentence? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Mother Fucker 26 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 The tech geek in me read the part from that link about 40 years ago was Pong, About 20 years ago was The Sims, Today we have 3D headsets. But that's not right, 25 years ago, there were 3D VR headsets. OK, I get that is not the point, but I felt the need to point that out. To the whole idea of free will in a computer simulation, I say it is the kind of thinking that will lead you straight to hell. This is not a computer simulation. The free will have is given to us by God who is in control of everything. EVERYTHING! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
James Skywalker 528 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 I'm in a computer jimulation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
-GD-X★ 7,728 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 you are the one Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flazeda_warrior 73 Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, The Mother Fucker said: The tech geek in me read the part from that link about 40 years ago was Pong, About 20 years ago was The Sims, Today we have 3D headsets. But that's not right, 25 years ago, there were 3D VR headsets. OK, I get that is not the point, but I felt the need to point that out. true. Quote To the whole idea of free will in a computer simulation, I say it is the kind of thinking that will lead you straight to hell. This is not a computer simulation. literally it's sounds like something we'd ban in hot tub sessions, but figuratively I think it aligns with what's written in religious text and repeated differently yet the same concept; Im gonna quote Vini on this- "the simulation could also be part of a larger simulation". Quote The free will have is given to us by God who is in control of everything. EVERYTHING! if God is in control and free will is given, is it free will? Sounds like determinism/ fascade of "free will" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flazeda_warrior 73 Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, -GD- said: you are the one What did you think of the finale/s8? better than Matrix sequels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Mother Fucker 26 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, zwarior said: true. literally it's sounds like something we'd ban in hot tub sessions, but figuratively I think it aligns with what's written in religious text and repeated differently yet the same concept; Im gonna quote Vini on this- "the simulation could also be part of a larger simulation". if God is in control and free will is given, is it free will? Sounds like determinism/ fascade of "free will" That is a very good question. I say Yes, it is still free will given because we can make our own choices rather it be right or wrong in choosing. God is in control no matter what that choice may be. I believe it is our free will choice that is how the Devil can mess with our thinking and get us to make bad choices. Had we not had free will we would be more like animals in mind, working purely off instinct nature of how God created us. Which would be man will have never sinned, as God would have never instructed Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree of life as God would know non-free will humans He made would simply obey his order. The Devil in snake form would have had no influence on non-free will humans. Edited May 22, 2019 by The Mother Fucker Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flazeda_warrior 73 Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) Adam and Eve were in Heaven already. I would say they were the most distant from primitive by being closest to God/most trusted, he didn't keep an eye on them. Yet, ironically were the prime and "animalistic" (everything sagging openly, naïve) so we're cultivating ourselves to be fancy for God, making what we deem to be the "right" choices (self examined or based on established text/policy, whatever). When in the end, the omnipotent already knows/(predetermines?) our faith? Is the "free will" just a multiple choice question/Choose your own adventure book? right to choose =/= freedom Edited May 22, 2019 by zwarior Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vini 430 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, zwarior said: simulated worlds indistinguishable from reality are easily achievable and arguably already done so. Agreed on it having to be conscious. Don't get your last sentence? I left the will part out. I meant I don't see free will being a possibility unless conciousness has some magical qualities. What simulated worlds are you talking about? I don't mean worlds that can become your reality I mean worlds with as much detail and scope as ours. Edited May 22, 2019 by Vini Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vini 430 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Mother Fucker said: That is a very good question. I say Yes, it is still free will given because we can make our own choices rather it be right or wrong in choosing. God is in control no matter what that choice may be. I believe it is our free will choice that is how the Devil can mess with our thinking and get us to make bad choices. Had we not had free will we would be more like animals in mind, working purely off instinct nature of how God created us. Which would be man will have never sinned, as God would have never instructed Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree of life as God would know non-free will humans He made would simply obey his order. The Devil in snake form would have had no influence on non-free will humans. Depends on what you believe in your core. If you let me into a computer simulation where the subjects are conscious and can feel pain and suffering I would feel the same amount of sympathy and moral responsibiloty for them as I do for people in the real world. You can either believe that morality is created by the need to make sure concious beings don't suffer or it comes from a higher being. I don't think the realization of not having free will is what makes us animals. We are animals, we're evolved apes. If you're a determinist you believe that human beings are conscious creatures witness to the unfolding of a story we have no real control over. With an illusion of control. But the illusion is good enough to form laws and the justice system around it. A criminal who commits a crime should still be locked up whether he has free will or not, not for retribution but because of practical reasons. In a world without free will violent criminals will still be treated as predators in nature, you don't blame a bear that cuts down your friend personally but you're still going to lock it up or put it down. Edited May 22, 2019 by Vini 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Mother Fucker 26 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, zwarior said: Adam and Eve were in Heaven already. I would say they were the most distant from primitive by being closest to God/most trusted, he didn't keep an eye on them. Yet, ironically were the prime and "animalistic" (everything sagging openly, naïve) so we're cultivating ourselves to be fancy for God, making what we deem to be the "right" choices (self examined or based on established text/policy, whatever). When in the end, the omnipotent already knows/(predetermines?) our faith? Is the "free will" just a multiple choice question/Choose your own adventure book? right to choose =/= freedom Adam and Eve they were in Eden, Eden was on Earth. I guess you could say they were naive up until the point they ate from the tree of life and then they covered themselves up after that as they knew of their shame. Yes and Yes. Which is why we all should continue to praise God at every turn and learn to forgive and love our neighbors. You can choose to not believe in God and go off on your own venture of how you want to live life the way according to yourself without God (I wouldn't recommend it), and you might find that you will be completely alright until you reach the end of your life. Freedom has a very broad meaning. If you were living in bondage your choices in life would be very limited compared to someone not in bondage who has a lot more freedom. Freedom has it limits, there are the ten Commandments from God, so freedom doesn't mean you can do everything you want, but you do have the "Free will" to do it regardless (I don't recommend it). Even in governing society, you are only granted a certain amount of Freedom. Again "Free will" still gives you to the ability to do so regardless of any law ( I don't recommend it). Edited May 22, 2019 by The Mother Fucker Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Mother Fucker 26 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, Vini said: Depends on what you believe in your core. If you let me into a computer simulation where the subjects are conciousn and can feel pain and suffering I would feel the same amount of sympathy and moral responsibiloty for them as I do in the real world. You can either believe that morality is created by the need to make sure concious beings don't suffer or it comes from a higher being. I don't think the realization of not having free will is what makes us animals. We are animals, we're evolved apes. If you're a determinist you beleieve that human beings are conciousn creatures witness to the unfolding of a story we have no real control over. With an illusion of control. But the illusion is good enough to form laws and the justice system around it. A criminal who commits a crime should still be locked up whether he has free will or not, not for retribution but because of practical reasons. In a world without free will violent criminals will still be treated as predators in nature, you don't blame a bear that cuts down your friend personally but you're still going to lock it up or put it down. and this I respectively disagree with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flazeda_warrior 73 Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Vini said: I left the will part out. I meant I don't see free will being a possibility unless conciousness has some magical qualities. What simulated worlds are you talking about? I don't mean worlds that can become your reality I mean worlds with as much detail and scope as ours. nvm, there's no world made from scratch that wouldn't involve some suspense of disbelief I know of Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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