HDR flat out sucks

[DynamiteCop 2,085]

8 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

For HDR to have the impact it's supposed to have, you need 3 things:

 

-A high quality display (many simply can't display the FULL wide-color gamut as well as produce light bright enough, or shadows dark enough to give the image the intensity it requires)

-A high quality input device (many devices might not be configured to properly or even support output in the required bit or color format)

-A high quality sample of content which is properly authored and designed around HDR (many examples of "HDR" content are simply tone-mapped 'enhancements' of SDR content which don't even hit the required output parameters to qualify for HDR)
 

A basic understanding of what "HDR" is and what it isn't also goes a long way... it's not all about color pop, or being really bright... color gradients and shadow in dark scenes play a HUGE part in what makes an HDR image superior to an SDR image... being able to spot and appreciate the difference is helpful.

 

It's unfortunate but HDR at the moment still has too many quirks for some people to truly be able to appreciate it on a really wide level.  Too many TVs with far too varying degrees of quality and "support" for that.  Of course there are tons of people out there who immediately notice the difference and that's great, but as far as having all the necessary requirements, such as TVs that actually can display the required nits and isn't just "HDR ready" as well as content which isn't just tone-mapped and doesn't expand the actual dynamic range of the output... it unfortunately means that some people wont be convinced.

 

Get them in front of a properly calibrated high quality OLED display, and content designed around and authored for HDR wide color gamut... and you'll see their jaws drop  

Honestly I think the best piece of content for understanding the difference between SDR and HDR has to be Forza Motorsport 7, the game was built with HDR in mind. 

 

Without it the game looks washed out and it's almost like there's a grayscale to the entire image, it doesn't look as intended whatsoever. 

[Remij 4,670]

3 minutes ago, DynamitCop! ALM said:

Honestly I think the best piece of content for understanding the difference between SDR and HDR has to be Forza Motorsport 7, the game was built with HDR in mind. 

 

Without it the game looks washed out and it's almost like there's a grayscale to the entire image, it doesn't look as intended whatsoever. 

The Forza games are indeed really good, as well as Gears 5.  That game looks amazing in HDR.

 

Most First Party Sony and MS games have very good implementations of HDR.  I'm really interested in what MS is doing with their "HDR reconstruction" tech for Series X which actually generates heatmaps which their algorithm uses to produce a more dynamic range.

 

You can see it clearly in the Halo 5 example pic

 

 

 

That tech being applied to all BC games could really make some older games look a lot nicer on these bigger, brighter screens.  I really can't wait to see Digital Foundry test this stuff out.  It has very good implications for PC use as well in the future.

[DynamiteCop 2,085]

26 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

The Forza games are indeed really good, as well as Gears 5.  That game looks amazing in HDR.

 

Most First Party Sony and MS games have very good implementations of HDR.  I'm really interested in what MS is doing with their "HDR reconstruction" tech for Series X which actually generates heatmaps which their algorithm uses to produce a more dynamic range.

 

You can see it clearly in the Halo 5 example pic

 

 

 

That tech being applied to all BC games could really make some older games look a lot nicer on these bigger, brighter screens.  I really can't wait to see Digital Foundry test this stuff out.  It has very good implications for PC use as well in the future.

It's stuff like this why I like Microsoft a bit more than Sony, they're proactive with trying to continually better your experience even if it's with legacy based content. I'm not saying they care more, but they clearly do because this is work put in to bettering products and experiences which have already been sold to you. 

[jehurey 3,227]

1 hour ago, DynamitCop! ALM said:

Why do you keep saying "over-brightened" and variants of it... The level of attainable nits is a positive, not something negative. 

 

Luminosity is extremely important and it's actually a negative for OLED's, they can't hit the highlights LED's can and HDR basically collapses for them in a brightly lit room. 

 

Most OLED's struggle to even hit 900 nits, even 2020 variants while even my 2016 KS800D can hit near 1,500 nits. 

not at the cost of washed out blacks, or even washed out colors.

 

You need to look at the HDTVtest channel to see him straight-up do comparisons between high-end tvs and how they display HDR.

 

As it stands, now, Dolby Atmos is actually a litter better at their HDR implementation than HDR10.

[jehurey 3,227]

1 hour ago, ghostz life matters said:

“It probably isn’t”

 

Except factually, it’s SUPERIOR. In every way, really. 

...............says the idiot who thinks their TCL is a "premium" tv.

 

Sorry. Not my fault if my Note 8 has been doing better HDR than your crappy iPhone.

[DynamiteCop 2,085]

7 minutes ago, jehurey said:

not at the cost of washed out blacks, or even washed out colors.

 

You need to look at the HDTVtest channel to see him straight-up do comparisons between high-end tvs and how they display HDR.

 

As it stands, now, Dolby Atmos is actually a litter better at their HDR implementation than HDR10.

That's all about how you calibrate your display, not anything to do with the technology of LED vs. OLED. Even with an edge lit LED I can get great contrast ratios and black levels while pushing out peak levels of luminosity. 

 

Also it's Dolby Vision not Atmos. 

[jehurey 3,227]

Just now, DynamitCop! ALM said:

That's all about how you calibrate your display, not anything to do with the technology of LED vs. OLED. Even with an edge lit LED I can get great contrast ratios and black levels while pushing out peak levels of luminosity. 

 

Also it's Dolby Vision not Atmos. 

There is no calibration with even the best LEDs that will achieve the balance of an OLED.

 

You can get "great" contrast ratios................in well-lit rooms.

 

An OLED tv will make you realize that you are looking at ashey coal dark gray on your television, almost every single time.

 

And when you have the deep blacks, with the way your eye works, you can have brilliant looking bright spots when watching HDR scenes on OLEDs.

[Remij 4,670]

15 minutes ago, DynamitCop! ALM said:

It's stuff like this why I like Microsoft a bit more than Sony, they're proactive with trying to continually better your experience even if it's with legacy based content. I'm not saying they care more, but they clearly do because this is work put in to bettering products and experiences which have already been sold to you. 

Yea for sure.  I think it's 100% undeniable that MS puts more effort into improving and enhancing their content over time than Sony does.  They're a software based company at their heart, and that's what they've always done.  Compatibility and supporting legacy software/hardware is their forte.

 

Sony have done well when it came to actually supporting legacy content through actual hardware built into their consoles, like the PS2/early PS3... but on the software side, they have yet to prove that they're willing to put in as much effort as MS has.  But of course they may never have to.  It's a very nice extra, and very much in line with where MS sees video games going in the future.  Sony will get there eventually though.

[DynamiteCop 2,085]

9 minutes ago, jehurey said:

There is no calibration with even the best LEDs that will achieve the balance of an OLED.

 

You can get "great" contrast ratios................in well-lit rooms.

 

An OLED tv will make you realize that you are looking at ashey coal dark gray on your television, almost every single time.

 

And when you have the deep blacks, with the way your eye works, you can have brilliant looking bright spots when watching HDR scenes on OLEDs.

You clearly haven't looked at televisions in quite a while, local dimming has essentially eliminated these concerns you're talking about, microLED will eliminate them entirely. Even my TV which is edge lit can still produce deep blacks without haloing when properly calibrated, it's not infinite contrast but for what it is it's still impressive given that it's a four year old panel at this point. That's the benefit you get when buying a high end display, it ages considerably more graceful. 

 

It's strange that you say OLED is more balanced because the illusion breaks down when in a lit room which is the most common use case in any home. Yes OLED's will give you more accurate contrast mapping in a blacked out room, but even against the current LED TV's it's not by much. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by DynamitCop! ALM

[Tears of the Cows 1,206]

21 minutes ago, jehurey said:

...............says the idiot who thinks their TCL is a "premium" tv.

 

Sorry. Not my fault if my Note 8 has been doing better HDR than your crappy iPhone.

Is my phones display better than yours?

[Remij 4,670]

2 minutes ago, jehurey said:

There is no calibration with even the best LEDs that will achieve the balance of an OLED.

 

You can get "great" contrast ratios................in well-lit rooms.

 

An OLED tv will make you realize that you are looking at ashey coal dark gray on your television, almost every single time.

 

And when you have the deep blacks, with the way your eye works, you can have brilliant looking bright spots when watching HDR scenes on OLEDs.

With FALD, LCD already can achieve great contrast ratio...essentially perfect blacks at this point.  Of course FALD has its own issues, mostly with the first models with low zone counts... but the more zones you have those issues go away.  1000+ zones?  You're not going to be able to tell or see really any halo-ing.. and you're going to get amazing contrast and amazing brightness.

 

OLEDs are amazing, I'm not knocking them... but in the future, MicroLEDs will replace them, unless they evolve somehow.  Mini/MicroLED LCD TVs can scale far bigger, can be much brighter... which is important during daytime, and bright viewing use.. and wont have any burn-in issues.. so they're even better for gaming.

 

 

[jehurey 3,227]

14 minutes ago, DynamitCop! ALM said:

You clearly haven't looked at televisions in quite a while, local dimming has essentially eliminated these concerns you're talking about, microLED will eliminate them entirely. Even my TV which is edge lit can still produce deep blacks without haloing when properly calibrated, it's not infinite contrast but for what it is it's still impressive given that it's a four year old panel at this point. That's the benefit you get when buying a high end display, it ages considerably more graceful. 

 

It's strange that you say OLED is more balanced because the illusion breaks down when in a lit room which is the most common use case in any home. Yes OLED's will give you more accurate contrast mapping in a blacked out room, but even against the current LED TV's it's not by much. 

Dude.

 

HDTVtest is testing OLED HDR performance against the best Samsung QLEDs.

 

Its noticeable.

 

Now, if you live in a large living room with big bay area windows all around you.........then yeah, you should stick with a LED television.

[jehurey 3,227]

12 minutes ago, ghostz life matters said:

Is my phones display better than yours?

Good to see that you admit you aren't a good judge of display tech.

[jehurey 3,227]

7 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

With FALD, LCD already can achieve great contrast ratio...essentially perfect blacks at this point.  Of course FALD has its own issues, mostly with the first models with low zone counts... but the more zones you have those issues go away.  1000+ zones?  You're not going to be able to tell or see really any halo-ing.. and you're going to get amazing contrast and amazing brightness.

 

OLEDs are amazing, I'm not knocking them... but in the future, MicroLEDs will replace them, unless they evolve somehow.  Mini/MicroLED LCD TVs can scale far bigger, can be much brighter... which is important during daytime, and bright viewing use.. and wont have any burn-in issues.. so they're even better for gaming.

 

 

If you turn on subtitles in dark scenes, you'll have a bloom effect around those.

 

And yeah, I'm hoping that microLEDs get there, it'll probably take 4-5 years for them to get there, but I'll get a micro-LED next after I enjoy my LG B9 for the next few years.

 

Because double-LCDs are simply not acceptable as gaming displays.

[Remij 4,670]

Just now, jehurey said:

If you turn on subtitles in dark scenes, you'll have a bloom effect around those.

 

And yeah, I'm hoping that microLEDs get there, it'll probably take 4-5 years for them to get there, but I'll get a micro-LED next after I enjoy my LG B9 for the next few years.

 

Because double-LCDs are simply not acceptable as gaming displays.

Oh definitely.  It's very obvious with subtitles and in some scenes, especially when comparing directly to an OLED.  OLEDs understandably handle small fast moving lights far better than FALD LCDs can at the moment or likely ever will... but I think LCDs will get to the point where the contrast and dimming will be good and fast enough, that it wont be the main deciding factor between choosing between panel types.  Being able to hit the peak brightness will be all too important in the future going forward I think.

 

Yea, it's not quite there yet, but in a few years they will begin to challenge OLED and eat away at the marketshare until something else happens that changes the game.

[DynamiteCop 2,085]

8 minutes ago, jehurey said:

Dude.

 

HDTVtest is testing OLED HDR performance against the best Samsung QLEDs.

 

Its noticeable.

 

Now, if you live in a large living room with big bay area windows all around you.........then yeah, you should stick with a LED television.

You can go to them all you want and his videos are great but I prefer hard data, you like whimsical speeches and that's fine but it's not as useful. The fact of the matter is for HDR your display is straight trash, the peak brightness is even questionable for SDR and for darker environments. 

 

 

Here is my 2016 TV before the multitude of firmware updates which even bettered these figures and local dimming capabilities. 

 

 

Again, sure you will not experience any haloing but that's not the point, and it's not that big of a deal. I mean are we not in a thread about HDR?

 

 

[jehurey 3,227]

1 minute ago, DynamitCop! ALM said:

You can go to them all you want and his videos are great but I prefer hard data, you like whimsical speeches and that's fine but it's not as useful. The fact of the matter is for HDR your display is straight trash, the peak brightness is even questionable for SDR and for darker environments. 

 

 

Here is my 2016 TV before the multitude of firmware updates which even bettered these figures and local dimming capabilities. 

 

 

Again, sure you will not experience any haloing but that's not the point, and it's not that big of a deal. I mean are we not in a thread about HDR?

 

 

You just automatically lost credibility there.

 

Sorry, but RTINGS is not the best review website out there, and they get stuff wrong all the time.

 

What you would see, in a visual comparison with your own eyes, and also confirmed with a professional calibrator, is that the LG OLED has better uniformed brightness at full screen.

 

LEDs do not run away in this aspect as much as you think they do.

 

And MORE IMPORTANTLY.................what do you use HDR for?  Cinema and Video Games.

 

OLED absolutely kills it in Cinema mode, and its not even a contest in Low-Latency Mode.

 

You pretty much lose most of your HDR advantage when you put your Samsung QLED in Game Mode, and boy do you lose so many other functions. Where OLEDs naturally achieve low latency with most of its features unaltered.

 

In Game Mode, you still retain the same type of HDR quality with an LG OLED.

 

That's just not the case with LED/QLEDs.

 

You seriously need to watch Vincent Teoh and his HDTVtest youtube channel............he is the best TV review out there in the internet, right now. he demonstrates everything.

[DynamiteCop 2,085]

2 minutes ago, jehurey said:

You just automatically lost credibility there.

 

Sorry, but RTINGS is not the best review website out there, and they get stuff wrong all the time.

 

What you would see, in a visual comparison with your own eyes, and also confirmed with a professional calibrator, is that the LG OLED has better uniformed brightness at full screen.

 

LEDs do not run away in this aspect as much as you think they do.

 

And MORE IMPORTANTLY.................what do you use HDR for?  Cinema and Video Games.

 

OLED absolutely kills it in Cinema mode, and its not even a contest in Low-Latency Mode.

 

You pretty much lose most of your HDR advantage when you put your Samsung QLED in Game Mode, and boy do you lose so many other functions. Where OLEDs naturally achieve low latency with most of its features unaltered.

 

In Game Mode, you still retain the same type of HDR quality with an LG OLED.

 

That's just not the case with LED/QLEDs.

 

You seriously need to watch Vincent Teoh and his HDTVtest youtube channel............he is the best TV review out there in the internet, right now. he demonstrates everything.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. 

 

It has more uniformed brightness? It has more 'stable' brightness because its luminosity capability is incredibly limited, it has poor range, that's not a good thing. Its peaks are terribly low and its sustained values are an abomination... Your TV has a brightness limiter which can't be disabled, SOME of your peaks barely eclipse the sustained values of my display, and as you move up the scale of screen area they degrade rapidly. 

 

You don't even understand what happens when a QLED is put into Game Mode, there's no color gamut or accuracy loss, there's no luminosity loss, it merely disables edge detection processing which basically amounts to THE POTENTIAL of text degradation; although I've yet to see any difference whatsoever. 

 

 

[jehurey 3,227]

Just now, DynamitCop! ALM said:

You really have no idea what you're talking about. 

 

It has more uniformed brightness? It has more 'stable' brightness because its luminosity capability is incredibly limited, it has poor range, that's not a good thing. Its peaks are terribly low and its sustained values are an abomination... Your TV has a brightness limiter which can't be disabled, SOME of your peaks barely eclipse the sustained values of my display, and as you move up the scale of screen area they degrade rapidly. 

 

You don't even understand what happens when a QLED is put into Game Mode, there's no color gamut or accuracy loss, there's no luminosity loss, it merely disables edge detection processing which basically amounts to THE POTENTIAL of text degradation; although I've yet to see any difference whatsoever. 

 

 

Yes it does. And its a arbritrary RTINGS "score"............I saw it demonstrated to me in a direct comparison side by side, and a professional television calibrator specifically says it is so.

 

You're the one that doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

Yes I do know EXACTLY what happens to QLED in game mode................because.............and I will type this more slowly.

 

.............I..............literally..................saw................it....................demonstrated..................to..............me..............in..............a.............direct..............comparison.

 

If you watch the HDTVtest youtube channel to see the comparison, you will not defend your argument anymore.

 

 

[DynamiteCop 2,085]

29 minutes ago, jehurey said:

Yes it does. And its a arbritrary RTINGS "score"............I saw it demonstrated to me in a direct comparison side by side, and a professional television calibrator specifically says it is so.

 

You're the one that doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

Yes I do know EXACTLY what happens to QLED in game mode................because.............and I will type this more slowly.

 

.............I..............literally..................saw................it....................demonstrated..................to..............me..............in..............a.............direct..............comparison.

 

If you watch the HDTVtest youtube channel to see the comparison, you will not defend your argument anymore.

 

 

You do realize that these tests are being performed on specific displays and are not representative of any other display or LED as a whole right? Everything that happens is entirely display dependent. For example the model which directly replaced my KS800D in the following model year was considerably worse all around and it was billed as the successor. When I disable game mode the image and color gamut flattens out, luminosity and peak highlights are lost; literally the exact opposite of what he's saying here for this Q90R.

 

You'll come to understand that not everything with TV's even from the same manufacturer has the same effect or is a one size fits all. There's a reason the KS8000 is such a legendary and revered TV, it has very limited drawbacks and in multiple ways is better than even some of what is releasing today in the same class.

 

As a side note he even noted for the Q90R that the compromises in processing are the result of the full array handling, guess what? I don't have full array. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by DynamitCop! ALM