I think I figured out how the SSD setup in Scarlett and PS5 will be affordable

[DynamiteCop 2,149]

They won't be system storage, they will have an auxiliary drive for general storage that will dump segments to the SSD with intelligent delivery revolving around the particular section of the game you're in, it will swap sections on the fly in the background and pre-cache it so there will be no loading between data swaps. This will allow them to keep the SSD size down to maybe 128GB which will dramatically cut its cost but still be able to provide every loading benefit in any particular game. 

 

I'm assuming a more general purpose HDD will be used for main storage with compression and algorithmic wizardry to be able to dump files rapidly to the SSD for operation. 

 

 

[lynux3 2,447]

You basically just described the patent Sony submitted.

[DynamiteCop 2,149]

2 minutes ago, lynux3 said:

You basically just described the patent Sony submitted.

Which patent, I haven't actually seen them I was just shooting from the hip. 

[Remij 5,022]

Just now, DynamiteCop! said:

Which patent, I haven't actually seen them I was just shooting from the hip. 

It's been speculated since the beginning that an ultra fast SSD/HDD hybrid could be a potential solution.

 

Did you think you've solved some riddle that nobody has thought of or something? lmao

[jehurey 3,318]

So, just that we can recap.........Dynocrap embarassed himself in a thread that he went out of his way to create.

 

He literally could have made himself look smarter by having never created this thread at all.

[lynux3 2,447]

4 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

Which patent, I haven't actually seen them I was just shooting from the hip. 

There's several patents regarding intelligent delivery of an application and SSD speeds/caching, etc. from Sony on ResetEra, Beyond3D, and there posted on several sites. I think NAND is getting so cheap now that it'll be plenty affordable by the time these systems come out. SK Hynix just announced 128 layer 4D NAND is already under way and they're looking to be competitive in the market which will drive costs even lower. We could be looking at $50 1TB SSDs next year.

[DynamiteCop 2,149]

3 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

It's been speculated since the beginning that an ultra fast SSD/HDD hybrid could be a potential solution.

 

Did you think you've solved some riddle that nobody has thought of or something? lmao

Kind of actually, yes. All I've been reading from people not only here but abroad is about how this could be cost feasible and not a single person actually came up with a real solution. 

 

The closest I've seen are hybrid drives which use an SSD for cache but not something which dumps a game to the SSD with intelligent delivery from the main system storage. I've not seen a single person mention anything even remotely close to that. The constant circling question has been "How is a 1tb or 2tb NVME drive going to be affordable", I remember frankly having that conversation with both you and Lynux. 

 

You can act as dickheadish and as cocky as you like about it but I've seen nothing of the sort like this but feel free to enlighten me with some evidence. 

[Teh_Diplomat 2,054]

Hybrid drives work great for burst-loading, so game files are loaded quite rapidly, compared to a standard disk drive, yet cheaper than large(r) solid state drives. The Barracuda drive has 8/16/32 GB of SSD storage, that when put up against peak transfer/read/write speed will place those files onto the SSD. Basically it notices what files are required to load, and places them onto the SSD portion during the load section. 

 

 

So while not optimal for large files like an HD video, and its conversion; it will work wonders for the textures, and character models required for the next level. It drastically reduces load times for games, without the need to store all files on a solid state drive.

[DynamiteCop 2,149]

3 minutes ago, Teh_Diplomat said:

Hybrid drives work great for burst-loading, so game files are loaded quite rapidly, compared to a standard disk drive, yet cheaper than large(r) solid state drives. The Barracuda drive has 8/16/32 GB of SSD storage, that when put up against peak transfer/read/write speed will place those files onto the SSD. Basically it notices what files are required to load, and places them onto the SSD portion during the load section. 

 

 

So while not optimal for large files like an HD video, and its conversion; it will work wonders for the textures, and character models required for the next level. It drastically reduces load times for games, without the need to store all files on a solid state drive.

It's going to have to work in a fundamentally different way because even with the fastest SSD's and hybrid drives all we get now is a reduction in loading times but nothing even close to eliminating them. All I can envision is intelligent delivery where a game is segmented and sections are dumped and replaced in their entirety. 

 

I'm curious about longevity though with write limitations on SSD's, will they even be replaceable or built in? With a limited amount of possible writes to the drive it's something I would already be worried about. 

Edited June 28, 2019 by DynamiteCop!

[lynux3 2,447]

Here's the most recent patent people have been talking about outside of the main, supposed, next-gen PlayStation's SSD solution.

 

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=10322347&IDKey=127D483D2EA4&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%26Sect2%3DHITOFF%26p%3D1%26u%3D%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsearch-bool.html%26r%3D3%26f%3DG%26l%3D50%26co1%3DAND%26d%3DPTXT%26s1%3D%2522Sony%2BInteractive%2BEntertainment%2522%26OS%3D%2522Sony%2BInteractive%2BEntertainment%2522%26RS%3D%2522Sony%2BInteractive%2BEntertainment%2522

 

Quote

"A system and method are disclosed for dynamically loading game software for smooth game play. A load boundary associated with a game environment is identified. A position of a character in the game environment is then monitored. Instructions corresponding to a next game environment are loaded into a memory when the character crosses the load boundary, such that gameplay is not interrupted."

This was filed in 2012 and updated earlier this month. Intelligent application delivery isn't new, but with new technology they could potentially get a breathe of fresh air. We still don't know the uniqueness of Sony's SSD solution at the moment outside of patents (which some solutions never see the light of day).

[Remij 5,022]

19 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

Kind of actually, yes. All I've been reading from people not only here but abroad is about how this could be cost feasible and not a single person actually came up with a real solution. 

 

The closest I've seen are hybrid drives which use an SSD for cache but not something which dumps a game to the SSD with intelligent delivery from the main system storage. I've not seen a single person mention anything even remotely close to that. The constant circling question has been "How is a 1tb or 2tb NVME drive going to be affordable", I remember frankly having that conversation with both you and Lynux. 

 

You can act as dickheadish and as cocky as you like about it but I've seen nothing of the sort like this but feel free to enlighten me with some evidence. 

I don't ever remember really talking in any meaningful capacity about how x or y solution is going to be affordable... but ok.

 

Nobody assumes that it would be a traditional SSD cache/HDD hybrid... We've already seen/figured out enough to know that it would obviously be more than that.  It would be a separate integrated NVMe drive which retains data and doesn't go away when you power off the system.  It's fundamentally different in ways but similar in principle.  You're dynamically caching assets from one drive onto another.  Obviously everyone knows that there would have to be SOME mechanism to get that data from the HDD to the NVMe.  Just saying "intelligent delivery system" doesn't mean you've put any more thought into it than anyone else has lol.

 

It's always been a potential solution.. I don't know what else to tell you.  You figured out something that most of us already assumed was a possibility.

[DynamiteCop 2,149]

4 minutes ago, lynux3 said:

Here's the most recent patent people have been talking about outside of the main, supposed, next-gen PlayStation's SSD solution.

 

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=10322347&IDKey=127D483D2EA4&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%26Sect2%3DHITOFF%26p%3D1%26u%3D%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fsearch-bool.html%26r%3D3%26f%3DG%26l%3D50%26co1%3DAND%26d%3DPTXT%26s1%3D%2522Sony%2BInteractive%2BEntertainment%2522%26OS%3D%2522Sony%2BInteractive%2BEntertainment%2522%26RS%3D%2522Sony%2BInteractive%2BEntertainment%2522

 

This was filed in 2012 and updated earlier this month. Intelligent application delivery isn't new, but with new technology they could potentially get a breathe of fresh air. We still don't know the uniqueness of Sony's SSD solution at the moment outside of patents (which some solutions never see the light of day).

That more or less seems like a reverse take on expanded occlusion culling, not loading between scenes where world and entire assets swaps would need to take place.

[lynux3 2,447]

5 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

That more or less seems like a reverse take on expanded occlusion culling, not loading between scenes where world and entire assets swaps would need to take place.

Not even close. The patent specifically notes, which you failed to read, that entire environments are loaded into memory dynamically. Not rendering trickery. This patent could already be in use today so it's not worth looking into any further. The most important patent is Sony's SSD patent which who knows how far that actually makes it into their next PlayStation. Again, intelligent application delivery isn't new, but I think Sony's Spider-man demonstration of what load times could look like next gen is promising.

[DynamiteCop 2,149]

1 minute ago, lynux3 said:

Not even close. The patent specifically notes, which you failed to read, that entire environments are loaded into memory dynamically. Not rendering trickery. This patent could already be in use today so it's not worth looking into any further. The most important patent is Sony's SSD patent which who knows how far that actually makes it into their next PlayStation. Again, intelligent application delivery isn't new, but I think Sony's Spider-man demonstration of what load times could look like next gen is promising.

It doesn't say that, it says there's a load boundary within an environment which is adjusted based upon the players position and when needed to the next section of that environment is loaded into memory for transition. This is conceptually the same as mipmap swaps on a larger scale or bordered obfuscation of occlusion culling. 

 

It's just render and load parameters determined by player location, scaling this out further can blur the lines to where its effects are never witnessed. That has nothing to do with eliminating transitional loads between completely different sections of the game or load screens themselves when booting into the world etc. 

[Remij 5,022]

12 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

It doesn't say that, it says there's a load boundary within an environment which is adjusted based upon the players position and when needed to the next section of that environment is loaded into memory for transition. This is conceptually the same as mipmap swaps on a larger scale or bordered obfuscation of occlusion culling. 

 

It's just render and load parameters determined by player location, scaling this out further can blur the lines to where its effects are never witnessed. That has nothing to do with eliminating transitional loads between completely different sections of the game or load screens themselves when booting into the world etc. 

You have no clue about what you're talking about.  That patent is not conceptually the same with mipmap swaps and occlusion culling as you've said.    All those assets are already loaded... the culling and LODs improve performance and has nothing to do with "loading" areas..

 

That patent does indeed refer to loading entire areas dependent on the position of the player within a specified game area determined by the developers.  This shit is already being done and has been for a long time now.

[DynamiteCop 2,149]

3 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

You have no clue about what you're talking about.  That patent is not conceptually the same with mipmap swaps and occlusion culling as you've said.    All those assets are already loaded... the culling and LODs improve performance and has nothing to do with "loading" areas..

 

That patent does indeed refer to loading entire areas dependent on the position of the player within a specified game area determined by the developers.  This shit is already being done and has been for a long time now.

Of course it is, what do you think mipmaps and occluded culling are? Segmented loading and rendering which are based relative to player position.

 

This takes that same conceptual practice and expands it.

 

 

 

[lynux3 2,447]

Yeah... I'm out.

[Remij 5,022]

17 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

Of course it is, what do you think mipmaps and occluded culling are? Segmented loading and rendering which are based relative to player position.

 

This takes that same conceptual practice and expands it.

 

 

 

You're so fucking stupid  

Those are both related to RENDERING and not LOADING.  The objects that are CULLED are already LOADED.  They are culled when off camera to increase performance...  THIS PATENT has NOTHING to do with THAT.  Not even conceptually.  This patent refers to loading game assets into memory well before they are to be rendered based on player position.  This isn't culling some parts of the game world based on where you are or whatever the fuck you think it is.

[Remij 5,022]

6 minutes ago, lynux3 said:

Yeah... I'm out.

Yea fuck it.  I mean, the patent is clear as fuck as to what it is and does.. lmao.

[Playstation Tablet 1,852]

Spinners have a fixed mechanical cost, and SSD prices are tanking. It's very possible a pure SSD is cheaper in the long run. Not now obviously.

 

 

The APU and 7nm being expensive is a bigger problem, apparently a die the size of the PS4 costs twice as much now.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Team 2019