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Vini

Who saw Joker?

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12 minutes ago, Vini said:

The problem they have is the movie has a mishmash of social issues without anything coherent to say.

I mean you have Sheepkilla in this thread criticizing the movie for not knowing what it wanted to be. RLM is also usually on the anti-woke side of controversies and they echoed the same thoughts.

 

I don't think you can really hang the argument on that point.

 

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Also the midget jokes are "punching down" and problematic. You shouldn't joke about midgets. I mean little people.

I wouldn't be surprised if people took issue with that, but the negative reviews I saw didn't mention it. I think it's the best scene in the movie. The midget not being able to reach the handle is pretty funny, but the level fear in that scene comes solely from the midget's predicament. That scene doesn't work nearly as well with a regular sized person and a locked door.

Edited by Hot Sauce

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9 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

I mean you have Sheepkilla in this thread criticizing the movie for not knowing what it wanted to be. RLM is also usually on the anti-woke side of controversies and they echoed the same thoughts.

 

I don't think you can really hang the argument on that point.

 

Its a dumb criticism regardless of the source, I'm just pointing out that wokes use the same criticism with regard to the movies social stance. 

 

To the extend that the movie didn't know what it wanted to be it's because Joker doesn't know what he wants to be either. He has juvenile undeveloped ideas about society clearly none of it echoes the filmmakers' own beliefs

 

To the extent that people who made this movie had any agenda it's clearly meant for it to work as a cautionary tale of mental illness and not much beyond that.

 

Edited by Vini

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26 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

None of those are reviews, but here's the CNN review and I don't find it to be particularly woke.

 

 

They're all critiques of the film. I don't understand how that's anything other than a distinction without a difference. 

 

But if you want to do this, I just pulled up Salon to start with and we're already off to the races:

 

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Is it a dangerous manifesto that could inspire incels to commit acts of violence, as some of its critics fear? An edgy character study teeming with social commentary, as director Todd Phillips and co-writer Scott Silver seem to have intended? Is it a dark comic book adventure like "The Dark Knight" or a perverse ode to mentally ill social rejects, like the Martin Scorsese classics "Taxi Driver" and "The King of Comedy" (and "The Dark Knight" as well)?

 

The answer is yes to all of those questions, but explaining why is not so simple. It's best to start by describing the skin of the film, its meandering plot, before trying to disentangle the messy entrails.

 

https://www.salon.com/2019/10/04/joker-review-todd-phillips-incels-alt-right-warner-bros/

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Vini said:

Its a dumb criticism

Why? If you acknowledge that the core of the criticism exists then it's a difference of opinion. If you can square it away, as you do later in this post about the movie didn't know what it wanted to be because Joker doesn't know what he wants to be, as something explainable then that's fine, but that's not going to be how everybody sees it.

 

10 minutes ago, Vini said:

The people who made this movie clearly meant for it to work as a cautionary tale of mental illness and not much beyond that. 

That doesn't mean something can't be criticized.

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10 minutes ago, Saucer said:

They're all critiques of the film. I don't understand how that's anything other than a distinction without a difference. 

Because all anybody cared about prior to this post was the RT and MetaCritic scores.

 

11 minutes ago, Saucer said:

But if you want to do this, I just pulled up Salon to start with and we're already off to the races:

Fair, that review is pretty terrible and a perfect example of what Vini/Cooke/yourself are complaining about.

 

They clearly largely enjoy the movie:

Quote

Would I recommend the movie? If you want to see a memorably idiosyncratic Phoenix performance or are tickled by the idea of Robert De Niro in the Jerry Lewis character from "The King of Comedy," sure. If you enjoy Scorsese's style of filmmaking, yes — as long as you are willing to accept a lesser-grade substitute. If you want to see a fun comic book movie, absolutely not.

But in the very next paragraph, feel the need to make it about something other than the movie's quality:

Quote

Yet that isn't the big thing that matters here. The more important point is that, because "Joker" wants to be a deep movie and is almost certainly going to be a huge success due to the ongoing popularity of the Batman franchise, it is likely that many people will identify with Fleck and consider the movie to be thought-provoking. As a result, the ideas in "Joker" will have consequences. How we proceed with our conversation about them will help determine whether they are for good or ill.

Emphasis mine, but, yeah, fuck that.

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3 hours ago, Saucer said:

And the irony of the leftwing press rooting for a rightwing incel to shoot up a Joker screening is that the Joker's followers in the film are leftwing Antifa incels like Jerry. But don't let that stop you, guys. 

Except the Joker separates himself from that mob.

 

And if there was any fear of people shooting up a movie theater........it isn't because of the scenes of the mob in the movie, but rather because of the personal motivations of the main character

 

I doubt that needed to be explained to you. You were just trying to shift the blame onto something else.

 

Incels are alt-right'ers (obviously, that simply isn't up for debate). They are mad because they feel separated from society in a way that they feel is unfair.

 

Who would associate that incel mentality..........with the mob of protesters in the Joker movie? We know which character is the one who clearly feels like they are unfairly being deprived of things that they feel they deserve and getting angry about it.

 

Ol' Fleck-ster.

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3 hours ago, Hot Sauce said:

I mean you have Sheepkilla in this thread criticizing the movie for not knowing what it wanted to be. RLM is also usually on the anti-woke side of controversies and they echoed the same thoughts.

 

I don't think you can really hang the argument on that point.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if people took issue with that, but the negative reviews I saw didn't mention it. I think it's the best scene in the movie. The midget not being able to reach the handle is pretty funny, but the level fear in that scene comes solely from the midget's predicament. That scene doesn't work nearly as well with a regular sized person and a locked door.

What are you two even arguing about? 

 

No offense, but I re-read the posts like 3 times and still don't get it.

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3 minutes ago, SheepKilla said:

What are you two even arguing about? 

 

No offense, but I re-read the posts like 3 times and still don't get it.

Joker's good, but it's not without it's faults. Dismissing critical reviews as woke leftists trying to smear the movie doesn't make much sense when the same criticisms shared among critical reviews also come from people that I would very much not consider woke leftists.

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8 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

Joker's good, but it's not without it's faults. Dismissing critical reviews as woke leftists trying to smear the movie doesn't make much sense when the same criticisms shared among critical reviews also come from people that I would very much not consider woke leftists.

Oh, I get it now.   

 

 

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Say what you will about the movie, but at least it's creative, aesthetic, and downright fun to watch. Unlike many  movies today. 

 

I think it shouldn't be a 69% on RT. More like 80%. I do believe politics played a role in that rating, especially when movies like Black Panther gets 97% on RT (lol).

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I've heard alot of people who say that its their favorite depiction of Gotham yet.  Which I would agree.

 

I mean.........its basically dirty late 70's, early 80's New York. And the movie theater has the movies Blow Out and Zorro: The Gay Blade, so that dates it right at 1981.

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Yeah politics played a huge role in this movie. Without a doubt. I was talking to a friend yesterday about the movie and he said he couldn’t enjoy it because he saw it as some left wing antifa movie. I’m like what? How the fuck do people see this shit 

 

I didn’t see or was looking for any political message in this damn movie. But dumbasses always get so sensitive 

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1 minute ago, jehurey said:

I've heard alot of people who say that its their favorite depiction of Gotham yet.  Which I would agree.

 

I mean.........its basically dirty late 70's, early 80's New York. And the movie theater has the movies Blow Out and Zorro: The Gay Blade, so that dates it right at 1981.

Anyone who says it's their favorite must never have seen Batman: TAS. Nothing will ever top that. 

 

Second favorite, though? Absolutely. Or First favorite for non-animated? Absolutely again. 

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1 minute ago, SheepKilla said:

Anyone who says it's their favorite must never have seen Batman: TAS. Nothing will ever top that. 

 

Second favorite, though? Absolutely. Or First favorite for non-animated? Absolutely again. 

Dude, that's art deco..........and even by art deco standards, sometimes Batman TAS would over do it with too many curves.

 

I can't say that I like that. I will say it makes it unique, but I consider that to be a weird look.

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8 minutes ago, SheepKilla said:

Anyone who says it's their favorite must never have seen Batman: TAS. Nothing will ever top that. 

Worth going back to as an adult? 

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2 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

Worth going back to as an adult? 

Oh definitely. I bought the blu-ray set last year, I think they repacked it into a more simplistic box with just the blu-rays and none of the extra accessories. That also gives you a digital code to watch all the episodes on like VUDU or something like that.

 

Its where Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamil will always be the definitive Batman and Joker.

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7 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

Worth going back to as an adult? 

Absolutely. 

 

In fact, it's even better as an adult. I would even go so far as to say it is not even suitable for a kid's show because it deals with many mature themes and the art style is rich.

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14 minutes ago, jehurey said:

Dude, that's art deco..........and even by art deco standards, sometimes Batman TAS would over do it with too many curves.

 

I can't say that I like that. I will say it makes it unique, but I consider that to be a weird look.

It's that way on purpose, evoking a gothic vibe. IMO it's the perfect Gotham style.

 

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I just saw it. Im still trying to process the entire movie, but i really enjoyed. The realistic depiction of Joker and his descent into madness was handled exceptionally well. Definitely one of the best 'superhero' themed movies i've seen.

Edited by Twinblade
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