Sony officially gives PS5 details (Cerny himself)

[jehurey 3,230]

1 minute ago, Team 2019 said:

Maybe Navi will have some other interesting features? RT is nice. Some resolution solution trick for 4K would make it cheaper and better? Checkboard Turbo Pro or some shit.

I think, its going to have checkerboard ability to compensate.  Either for upscaling previous gen games, or for major games that cannot make it to 4K native, and they need to bump it down a bit (like 1800p).

 

Maybe there will be a racing game that will have all the graphical bells and whistles, but still do 60fps. They might need to drop the res in order to make that work.

[DynamiteCop 2,086]

What hardware did the PS4 Pro supposedly have for doing checkerboard rendering? Because the Xbox One X seems to be able to do it all the same without this mystery hardware.

[Remij 4,679]

1 minute ago, jehurey said:

I think, its going to have checkerboard ability to compensate.  Either for upscaling previous gen games, or for major games that cannot make it to 4K native, and they need to bump it down a bit (like 1800p).

 

Maybe there will be a racing game that will have all the graphical bells and whistles, but still do 60fps. They might need to drop the res in order to make that work.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that PD is building a RT version of GTS for PS5.  They will likely do a re-release with upgrades and continue to just build and build on it.

 

RT is going to make racing games look simply sublime.  I can't wait.

[Playstation Tablet 1,725]

So assuming a game doesn't have RT, does the dedicated Navi RT hardware just scratch it's balls and do nothing?

[Playstation Tablet 1,725]

5 minutes ago, Nya` said:

What hardware did the PS4 Pro supposedly have for doing checkerboard rendering? Because the Xbox One X seems to be able to do it all the same without this mystery hardware.

ID Buffer. I think it held the previous frame in 3D space to save up on bandwidth, and memory usage.

[lynux3 2,087]

7 minutes ago, Nya` said:

What hardware did the PS4 Pro supposedly have for doing checkerboard rendering? Because the Xbox One X seems to be able to do it all the same without this mystery hardware.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-inside-playstation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

[Remij 4,679]

10 minutes ago, Team 2019 said:

So assuming a game doesn't have RT, does the dedicated Navi RT hardware just scratch it's balls and do nothing?

Who knows at this point?  Basically the RT cores accelerate ray and triangle intersection calculations and provide that data (Bounding Volume Hierarchy) to the Streaming Multiprocessors concurrently which reduces latency and improves performance drastically.

 

It totally depends on what AMD has come up with... but based on what I'm reading today.. it seems likely that they will have some emphasis on pushing 3D audio, so I wouldn't be surprised to see developers utilizing those cores to enhance audio how they described, as well as enemy AI and things like visibility ect ect, if they aren't focusing on ray traced effects.

[lynux3 2,087]

7 minutes ago, Team 2019 said:

So assuming a game doesn't have RT, does the dedicated Navi RT hardware just scratch it's balls and do nothing?

Did you read the article? It can be used for other features such as audio.

 

Quote

According to Cerny, the applications go beyond graphic implications. “If you wanted to run tests to see if the player can hear certain audio sources or if the enemies can hear the players’ footsteps, ray tracing is useful for that,” he says. “It's all the same thing as taking a ray through the environment.”

 

[Voidler 1,675]

10 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

Presumably asset sizes will increase as well, meaning more assets at higher quality will take time and need to be swapped all the same.  Current gen games wont be shit compared to them.

 

Also, I'd like to just point out that the increase in RAM is likely what's playing a bigger part here.  Notice how they demonstrated teleporting... already inside the game world.  Meaning they've likely already background loaded data from the entire game world into the PS5's pool of memory, which can be instantly accessed.  It's basically the same thing as a RAM drive, and kind of what MS was attempting to do with the X1X to improve loading.

 

They may have some neat implementation or bus that allows them to do all this extremely fast in the background.. but I believe that they are utilizing the AMOUNT of RAM to improve this example.. rather than super fast loading off the storage itself.

I think he was more demonstrating what a big barrier that current storage methods are. 

 

Games could probably load load way faster now on GDDR5. But if it still needs to load off the HDD then that becomes the bottleneck

 

 

[DynamiteCop 2,086]

5 minutes ago, Team 2019 said:

ID Buffer. I think it held the previous frame in 3D space to save up on bandwidth, and memory usage.

That's kind of my point, don't get caught up in the mumbo jumbo Cerny speak. A lot of things can sound really impressive on the surface but once you dig they kind of do fuck all. 

[lynux3 2,087]

2 minutes ago, Nya` said:

That's kind of my point, don't get caught up in the mumbo jumbo Cerny speak. A lot of things can sound really impressive on the surface but once you dig they kind of do fuck all. 

There's no mumbo jumbo about it. The technique doesn't require hardware acceleration, it's just that Cerny developed the PS4 Pro with hardware acceleration included.

[Remij 4,679]

6 minutes ago, Nya` said:

That's kind of my point, don't get caught up in the mumbo jumbo Cerny speak. A lot of things can sound really impressive on the surface but once you dig they kind of do fuck all. 

It wasn't meant to be a "superior" solution, or a catch all, rather than one that made it easier for developers to implement into their games/engines with minimal effort.  There's always going to be developers that implement their own solutions which will work better in certain case scenarios. 

 

Whether that worked out for them or really helped push adoption is up in the air... but being able to have that information right there in it's own buffer that you can call to is better than not having it, and having to code it yourself.. if you're not so inclined.

 

Cerny's a smart assed dude.  They consult hundreds of developers.  He was likely doing what he could with what he had.  This new hardware is no where near like what the PRO was.  I'm expecting some pretty ingenious design touches that really help improve the lives of developers and throughput of the machine. 

[Playstation Tablet 1,725]

Pro and PS5 development budgets are completely different, as is BOM and profit margins.

 

 

[DynamiteCop 2,086]

3 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

It wasn't meant to be a "superior" solution, or a catch all, rather than one that made it easier for developers to implement into their games/engines with minimal effort.  There's always going to be developers that implement their own solutions which will work better in certain case scenarios. 

 

Whether that worked out for them or really helped push adoption is up in the air... but being able to have that information right there in it's own buffer that you can call to is better than not having it, and having to code it yourself.. if you're not so inclined.

 

Cerny's a smart assed dude.  They consult hundreds of developers.  He was likely doing what he could with what he had.  This new hardware is no where near like what the PRO was.  I'm expecting some pretty ingenious design touches that really help improve the lives of developers and throughput of the machine. 

I'm not saying he's not smart, he's clearly a brilliant guy, but a lot of what he says is more fantastical than practical. 

[Remij 4,679]

10 minutes ago, Voidler said:

I think he was more demonstrating what a big barrier that current storage methods are. 

 

Games could probably load load way faster now on GDDR5. But if it still needs to load off the HDD then that becomes the bottleneck

 

 

Sure.

 

I still think though that this is a case of the entire level being loaded into memory.  Realistically they need to compare loading into the game for the first time, rather than teleporting from inside the game world.  

 

Still though.. it sounds like they really mean low-to-no loading times.  So we'll see how it holds up when the time comes.

[Remij 4,679]

2 minutes ago, Nya` said:

I'm not saying he's not smart, he's clearly a brilliant guy, but a lot of what he says is more fantastical than practical. 

Yea I know, I'm just saying.

 

There's a certain amount of window dressing that comes along with his job too.  He had to talk up the idea of rendering smarter, not harder.. and it's a natural extension of that talking point.  A simple thing in reality.. but something that sounds impressive and is new about the new hardware.

 

I'm sure there'll be other things like that for the PS5/X2.  It IS a new architecture after all.  We'll have AMD names for Mesh Shaders, and other shit.  They'll have "specialized hardware" which enables x and y. lol

 

Same old same old.   I love it though.  

[Playstation Tablet 1,725]

The ID Buffer and f16 were just features from GCN1.5 just baked in earlier into Pro's GCN 1.3 GPU.

[Playstation Tablet 1,725]

ZHuge said that Sony is preparing a killer PS5 reveal from what he knows on a games front.

 

I would love to see a next gen Shadow Moses if the MGS1 rumour was true ;(

[Voidler 1,675]

Can you use ray tracing for more advanced AI?

[Remij 4,679]

12 minutes ago, Voidler said:

Can you use ray tracing for more advanced AI?

Yes.

 

Essentially think of ray tracing as simply being able to cast out probes which can determine characteristics of the scene and developers can use that information to process how anything interacts with that scene.  That can mean sending out rays to determine lighting and shadow conditions, as well as audio.  They could literally sample audio and actually have the sample bounce off the geometry and reproduce more accurate sounds.. just like sound does irl.  Sounds being muffled behind a wall, for example.  And instead of being a baked sound file... they can actually alter it dynamically because the sound is actually being processed and taking the environment into consideration.  Cool stuff.  

 

The same thing about AI.  Instead of the enemies being programmed that if you are say "attached to cover" and being invisible to them.. they could actually cast rays out from the enemies eyes, and test if they intersect with geometry or if they intersect with the player character.  Meaning that sight could actually be much more realistic.. as well as AI pathing.  Enemies could actually be aware of their environments and what's happening within..  The sound thing I mentioned above also plays into this.  The sound you make from walking could actually have distance and enemies could detect sounds much more naturally.

 

It's basically the next evolution, and it's all dynamic, so AI could adapt to big changes in the environment.  And much like coding lighting and shadows, actually SIMULATING the effects means that it will really "just work".. and be easier for developers to implement in the long run.  When you don't have to place invisible lights all over to create a natural looking scene and instead can simulate how light would actually work.. it's easier for artists.  In the future, it will be the same for sound and AI programmers.  When sounds just act like they should, then you can set the rules, and the game will follow them.  Same for AI.

 

Of course, I'm talking it up a bit, but that's the reality of what it allows for.  It will take a long time for the performance and developers to get to the point where all this can be done simultaneously.. but those are the possibilities.