Digital Foundry; Sonic Team Racing Xbox1X/S and Switch Analysis.

[Goukosan 2,283]

6 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

Resolution matters less now.  That's a simple fact.  Mostly because temporal AA fixes most of the major problems with resolutions like 1080p and 1440p.  4K obviously resolves much better details, but the worst thing about lower resolutions was the jaggy teporally unstable image it produced.  Now we have post processing effects which enhance details, reduce jaggies, among other things, which improve the image quality well beyond what a game WOULD have looked like at those resolutions without those effects.  Now games are getting into the more filmic presentation and the fact is, with all these processes... 1440p+ all looks really fucking good.  Especially when you consider a 1440p game that's attempting to push visual boundaries.

 

As I said in a previous post in another thread... resolution will become less of an important measure of visuals in the future.  We wont even be able to tell the difference in resolutions with the amount of effects games will have... at that point.. it's good enough.. and we either want performance, or asset quality to improve.

this what @DynamiteCop!doesn't get.   With the resolutions and effects we're getting from Pro and X.... performance means more now because we're getting great image quality regardless. 

 

a 4K Juddery slide slow is not objectively better than 1440p locked 60fps. 

 

 

 

[Goukosan 2,283]

22 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

Oh shut the fuck up.

 

It doesn't take priority when it's such an overarching inconsequential difference that you would by and large need tools to even perceive its difference between the two platforms, and even worse as I told the other moron in here when the other system is still in fact dropping frames. 

 

I never said anything about most games being native 4K, that is yet another lie in your never ending playbook of them. Dev's are putting their resources behind the X, that's why it has more enhanced games, that's why it's getting more of them at a higher frequency, that's why out of probably 400 shared titles there's only couple where it falls behind. 

 

They've put out plenty of "marque showcase" games for the X you're just too much of a fucking moron to see it. All the games from Microsoft for the X push not only higher resolution but also higher graphical settings. Do you think Forza Horizon 4 looks as it does on the S as it does on the X? Sorry but I hate to break it to you, it doesn't. 

 

You function on feelings and opinions, you're a leftist so it's not a shock that your lifestyle mantra carries over into the analysis of video game data. You don't derive anything from the facts of the analysis, you solely hamstring yourself to the opinions and subjective conclusions. but not the data.

 

You're as worthless as an opinion is relative to data. 

 

Like I said.. your lack of self awareness is astounding.  When it comes to data... you try to extrapolate to match what you FEEL it should be... that's why you constantly get owned when it comes to math and data. 

 

How many countless times has your data analysis been wrong?.... You got beat down so much you finally gave up on doing data analysis on this board. 

 

 

What does fuck does left or right have to do with this?.... but since you want to go there... you're so far extreme right.... everyone on this board can be considered leaning left compared to your ass. 

 

As I said earlier... this thread is another example of you acting on your feelings. 

 

DF gave a conclusion based on their professional analysis.... your FEELINGS GOT HURT... so you try to spin their results and change it to what you THINK it should be. 

 

Talking bout how freesync can fix the issues with the 1s version... stfu you fucking clown ass

 

 

[DynamiteCop 2,088]

24 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

Resolution matters less now.  That's a simple fact.  Mostly because temporal AA fixes most of the major problems with resolutions like 1080p and 1440p.  4K obviously resolves much better details, but the worst thing about lower resolutions was the jaggy teporally unstable image it produced.  Now we have post processing effects which enhance details, reduce jaggies, among other things, which improve the image quality well beyond what a game WOULD have looked like at those resolutions without those effects.  Now games are getting into the more filmic presentation and the fact is, with all these processes... 1440p+ all looks really fucking good.  Especially when you consider a 1440p game that's attempting to push visual boundaries.

 

As I said in a previous post in another thread... resolution will become less of an important measure of visuals in the future.  We wont even be able to tell the difference in resolutions with the amount of effects games will have... at that point.. it's good enough.. and we either want performance, or asset quality to improve.

I'm going to have to disagree to a large extent, because the lower resolution not only compounds the effect of temporal AA making it blurrier the lower it is from the onset, operating it at a resolution far outside of the displays native compounds that blur even further to the player. To add to this the higher the resolution the better residual 'filtering' you get on textures.

You get a 'clean' image but you also get one which is extremely soft. Far Cry 5 and its TAA on Xbox One X versus the Pro is a glaring example of exactly that in practice not only perceptually as to what you see on your screen but also in capture. 

 

On the X it's extremely clean but also extremely sharp, on the Pro it's extremely clean but it's quite blurry. Who do you think you're fooling here?

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by DynamiteCop!

[Quad Damage 1,763]

df are literally tech-savvy tech nerds thatve been doing these analysis' for years - not basic editors at game informer that think every game looks generally fine. this is the quintessential group with a nitpicky eagle eye that wants all the bells and whistles, everything turned up to max, and always has the best hardware. and theyre flat out saying pro is the best way to play these games even if in 1080p mode. THEY should be the group that is the LEAST accepting of 1080p but theyre not - think about how utterly irrelevant that often makes x's iq advantages in practice. the bottom line is at some point res washes over you while framerate has the potential to be nearly constantly perceptible and detrimental.

 

but deeno thinks he knows better because he bought a 4k tv

Edited June 2, 2019 by Quad Damage

[Remij 4,717]

32 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

I'm going to have to disagree to a large extent, because the lower resolution not only compounds the effect of temporal AA making it blurrier the lower it is from the onset, operating it at a resolution far outside of the displays native compounds that blur even further to the player. To add to this the higher the resolution the better residual 'filtering' you get on textures.

You get a 'clean' image but you also get one which is extremely soft. Far Cry 5 and its TAA on Xbox One X versus the Pro is a glaring example of exactly that in practice not only perceptually as to what you see on your screen but also in capture. 

 

On the X it's extremely clean but also extremely sharp, on the Pro it's extremely clean but it's quite blurry. Who do you think you're fooling here?

 

 

 

I specifically state the major flaw the TAA largely addresses... which is jagged edges.  

 

Also, there's a large gulf in TAA quality across games.  It's getting better now, but they aren't all created equal.  Not to mention in that gif you posted... zoomed in... the Xbox version (with it's OS level sharpening filter and black crush) give the impression of more detail and makes the PS version appear washed out in comparison.

 

Of course, I already mentioned that 4K resolves more detail...  It's like you weren't listening.. or just wanted to argue.  

[DynamiteCop 2,088]

 

 

45 minutes ago, Remij_ said:

I specifically state the major flaw the TAA largely addresses... which is jagged edges.  

 

Also, there's a large gulf in TAA quality across games.  It's getting better now, but they aren't all created equal.  Not to mention in that gif you posted... zoomed in... the Xbox version (with it's OS level sharpening filter and black crush) give the impression of more detail and makes the PS version appear washed out in comparison.

 

Of course, I already mentioned that 4K resolves more detail...  It's like you weren't listening.. or just wanted to argue.  

Xbox doesn't have a sharpening filter anymore, that was removed in 2014 so that's not a factor and black crush also hasn't been an issue for many years because you can completely change the color space whereas you could not previously, there's HDMI black levels which can also be adjusted independent effectively eliminating the issue. The more you stretch a sub-native resolution to reach its native output the more washed out it appears, that's just an effect of upscaling.

 

The TAA in FC5 is exceptional, arguably the best implementation ever seen in a game so the only differentiating factor in the equation here is in fact resolution, and it makes an obscene difference in terms of IQ. With the Pro you're not only dealing with a stretched image which results in improper internal gamma levels you're also suffering through two passes of compounded blur due to scaling via not only the TAA but also the resolution itself. 

 

A sub-native image will never resolve properly relative to its display or output.

 

Take these for example from Uncharted 4, this is system capture and you can see the difference with and without TAA in effect. The TAA free sub-native image is already clean due to the nature of how high of a resolution it is and the blur that results from the upscaled output. With the TAA it compounds on top of this blur resulting in a doubly blurred result. TAA is great when the resolution of the render is high and suited to the output, when it's not this is the result just as is seen in Far Cry 5 on the Pro. 

 

TAA

 

 

TAA Disabled

 

 

 

Resolution is as important as it's ever been, and with aggressive TAA taking over as a standard and post processing in games these days I'd argue it's even more important as the clarity of TAA directly scales with resolution. 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by DynamiteCop!

[Remij 4,717]

55 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

 

 

Xbox doesn't have a sharpening filter anymore, that was removed in 2014 so that's not a factor and black crush also hasn't been an issue for many years because you can completely change the color space whereas you could not previously, there's HDMI black levels which can also be adjusted independent effectively eliminating the issue. The more you stretch a sub-native resolution to reach its native output the more washed out it appears, that's just an effect of upscaling.

 

The TAA in FC5 is exceptional, arguably the best implementation ever seen in a game so the only differentiating factor in the equation here is in fact resolution, and it makes an obscene difference in terms of IQ. With the Pro you're not only dealing with a stretched image which results in improper internal gamma levels you're also suffering through two passes of compounded blur due to scaling via not only the TAA but also the resolution itself. 

 

A sub-native image will never resolve properly relative to its display or output.

 

Take these for example from Uncharted 4, this is system capture and you can see the difference with and without TAA in effect. The TAA free sub-native image is already clean due to the nature of how high of a resolution it is and the blur that results from the upscaled output. With the TAA it compounds on top of this blur resulting in a doubly blurred result. TAA is great when the resolution of the render is high and suited to the output, when it's not this is the result just as is seen in Far Cry 5 on the Pro. 

 

TAA

 

 

 

TAA Disabled

 

 

The sharpening filter is still there.  Less pronounced.  Still there.  DF calls out the black crush almost every single time.

 

Upscaling does nothing to wash out images... that's bullshit. lol

 

TAA in FC5 is quite good, and FC5 looks fine on PS4 Pro.  The Xbox One X version isn't even native 4K.  

 

XOX

 

PRO

 

 

Besides the time of day lighting differences there's not a huge amount of appreciable difference between them from normal viewing distances.   Sure if you want to count pixels and zoom in, you can see one is a bit sharper... 1800p would be almost indiscernible.  That's completely besides the fact that what I'm saying is that games can be developed with lower resolutions in mind without care of hitting a native pixel count.  It's not going to matter when the two systems are close enough to each other that devs will target the same resolution.  It's not like we're going to have one console clearly hitting a target that the other couldn't.  Which means that if you have a brand new game developed for 1440p across both consoles...  it's going to look amazing, and you're not going to have another console version with higher resolution to compare it to and say "see look how much better it looks!!!"

 

People will stop caring because quite frankly, it wouldn't look THAT much better anyway.  Effects will become better and even more pronounced in future games.  Of course higher resolutions will always look better... but my whole point is that it's getting to be a less important element the higher up we get.  I think 1440p-4K is a good sweet spot range that is good for the near future.  Improvements to visuals and effects will be more important than a bit more resolution.  Ray-tracing will be ever more important from now on to help build up that factor.  

 

If one console has accelerated RT and the other doesn't... it's going to be quite interesting indeed. :X

[JonDnD 2,698]

4 hours ago, Quad Damage said:

 

you just proved aza's case - he said wins and ties this year. even by your (biased) count, 6 are arguable and 2 are definitive wins.

 

thats 8 of like 11 high profile multiplats released this year. 350

Xbox sucks but its wins almost every time . I'd say dont act stupid ...but you are a cow so n.v it's to be expected 

 

And lmao at the dingleberry sheep itt 

[JonDnD 2,698]

2 hours ago, Goukosan said:

this what @DynamiteCop!doesn't get.   With the resolutions and effects we're getting from Pro and X.... performance means more now because we're getting great image quality regardless. 

 

a 4K Juddery slide slow is not objectively better than 1440p locked 60fps. 

 

 

 

You're acting like that's the case for the majority . It's not.  And you seem to have no issues with fr when it comes to switch games?? Mk11 ?? Then it's barely noticeable lmao 

[DynamiteCop 2,088]

54 minutes ago, Quad Damage said:

df are literally tech-savvy tech nerds thatve been doing these analysis' for years - not basic editors at game informer that think every game looks generally fine. this is the quintessential group with a nitpicky eagle eye that wants all the bells and whistles, everything turned up to max, and always has the best hardware. and theyre flat out saying pro is the best way to play these games even if in 1080p mode. THEY should be the group that is the LEAST accepting of 1080p but theyre not - think about how utterly irrelevant that often makes x's iq advantages in practice. the bottom line is at some point res washes over you while framerate has the potential to be nearly constantly perceptible and detrimental.

 

but deeno thinks he knows better because he bought a 4k tv

They're literally people like Remij and I with some additional equipment who have made jobs out of a hobby, they're not an enigma, they're not special. Appeals to authority are not going to gain you any ground in a conversation like this especially on the merit of what's being discussed. 

 

Again, like Goober you're also falling back on "they're saying" nonsense instead of taking in the raw data and weighing the rendering ramifications. You don't seem to understand that what they think has no bearing on the data itself. They're free to inject their viewpoints and preferences in light of the data but the data nonetheless exists and doesn't need interpretation. 

 

The data as the games are coded is...

 

• A 104% higher rendering resolution
• A 3-5% variance in overall performance

With the game not as coded with a system override this changes to...

 

• A 300% higher rendering resolution
• An 8-10% variance in overall performance

 

Not playing at a native resolution on a 4K display doesn't look great unless very close to native, this game isn't even rendering half of native on the Pro. 1080p on a 4K display looks like shit across the board and you see that at all times, there's no way around that. Objectively speaking the concessions made for the performance gained is not rational, it's not logical. The feathering between 55 and 60 FPS maybe accounts for the 15th percentile, the feathering between 50 and 55 the 10th percentile and the the drops into the mid 40's the 5th percentile. That means you're going to be at a locked 60 FPS for basically 42 seconds out of every minute played on demanding maps. You'll be between 55 to 60 for 9 seconds of every minute played, between 50 and 55 for 6 seconds of every minute played and 45+ for 3 seconds of every minute played. 

 

You won't perceptually notice any difference between 55 and 60 which give you 51 seconds out of every minute of perceptually smooth gameplay on demanding maps. The 9 remaining seconds would be noticeable but only 3 of them would be jarring. 1080p is perceptually jarring at all times.

 

Want to see the difference between 4K and 1080p?

 

 

 

By the way this isn't zoomed in, this is a pixel accurate crop...

[JonDnD 2,698]

Let's look in order the most recent DF vids 

 

Sonic Kart . Better on ps4 in performance only

 

A plagues tales - x wins 

Red dead revisit - x wins

Rage 2 - x wins

Days Gone - shit fr doesnt matter here ?

Mk11 - x wins 

Sr3 - switch is a joke 

Hellblade revisit - x wins

Borderlands - x wins

Division 2 - wins

Sekiro ? Idr , ps4 ?

Metro - x wins 

 

I mean you can keep on going all day.  X wins almost everytime .

Cuphead - tie I guess?

[Goukosan 2,283]

23 minutes ago, JONBpc said:

You're acting like that's the case for the majority . It's not.  And you seem to have no issues with fr when it comes to switch games?? Mk11 ?? Then it's barely noticeable lmao 

Difference is... I accept Switch for what it is.... 

 

DynamiteCop denies reality when it hits him in the face. 

 

 

 

Who said it was like this for the majority?... im saying when it happens... DynamiteCop refuses to accept it

Edited June 2, 2019 by Goukosan

[Quad Damage 1,763]

24 minutes ago, JONBpc said:

Xbox sucks but its wins almost every time . I'd say dont act stupid ...but you are a cow so n.v it's to be expected 

 

And lmao at the dingleberry sheep itt 

 

yeah my bad 6 of the 8 are arguable..  

[JonDnD 2,698]

5 minutes ago, Goukosan said:

Difference is... I accept Switch for what it is.... 

 

DynamiteCop denies reality when it hits him in the face. 

 

 

 

Who said it was like this for the majority?... im saying when it happens... DynamiteCop refuses to accept it

Well when the resolution gap is massive I would say its arguable . If ps4 had perfect locked framerate and x didn't sure I'd pick that too . But typically , that isn't the case .

 

And the cows are ..acting like they are winning the multiplat battle every rare time they get a win,  which is hardly never .

[JonDnD 2,698]

6 minutes ago, Quad Damage said:

 

yeah my bad 6 of the 8 are arguable..  

Congrats on having the best version of 3 percent of games lmao 

 

[Goukosan 2,283]

30 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

They're literally people like Remij and I with some additional equipment who have made jobs out of a hobby, they're not an enigma, they're not special. 

 

No they're not like you.   They're unbiased and call it as they see it. 

 

You are the most biased person on this board and try to twist reality to match your bias. 

 

Yes.. they're special because the industry takes them seriously. 

 

 

Who did MS go to to reveal the details of the X? They went to Digital Foundry...

 

You think they got the official X tech scoop and analysis because they're just hobbyists and nothing special? 

 

 

They have been doing this for years and have built up a great reputation.... you on the other hand have a reputation for being biased as fuck to the point that it clouds your perspective on EVERYTHING. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Goukosan

[Goukosan 2,283]

1 minute ago, JONBpc said:

Well when the resolution gap is massive I would say its arguable . If ps4 had perfect locked framerate and x didn't sure I'd pick that too . But typically , that isn't the case .

 

And the cows are ..acting like they are winning the multiplat battle every rare time they get a win,  which is hardly never .

Jonb1 Im speaking about when DF says PS4 pro is the better version because of better performance.   When that happens DynamiteCop does back flips to discredit DF. 

 

But when DF picks X.... he loves them. 

 

In this same thread he said DF conclusions hold no weight and mean nothing.... and that his conclusions mean more because it's "objective" in his eyes 

[Quad Damage 1,763]

31 minutes ago, DynamiteCop! said:

They're literally people like Remij and I with some additional equipment who have made jobs out of a hobby, they're not an enigma, they're not special. Appeals to authority are not going to gain you any ground in a conversation like this especially on the merit of what's being discussed. 

 

Again, like Goober you're also falling back on "they're saying" nonsense instead of taking in the raw data and weighing the rendering ramifications. You don't seem to understand that what they think has no bearing on the data itself. They're free to inject their viewpoints and preferences in light of the data but the data nonetheless exists and doesn't need interpretation. 

 

The data as the games are coded is...

 

• A 104% higher rendering resolution
• A 3-5% variance in overall performance

With the game not as coded with a system override this changes to...

 

• A 300% higher rendering resolution
• An 8-10% variance in overall performance

 

Not playing at a native resolution on a 4K display doesn't look great unless very close to native, this game isn't even rendering half of native on the Pro. 1080p on a 4K display looks like shit across the board and you see that at all times, there's no way around that. Objectively speaking the concessions made for the performance gained is not rational, it's not logical. The feathering between 55 and 60 FPS maybe accounts for the 15th percentile, the feathering between 50 and 55 the 10th percentile and the the drops into the mid 40's the 5th percentile. That means you're going to be at a locked 60 FPS for basically 42 seconds out of every minute played on demanding maps. You'll be between 55 to 60 for 9 seconds of every minute played, between 50 and 55 for 6 seconds of every minute played and 45+ for 3 seconds of every minute played. 

 

You won't perceptually notice any difference between 55 and 60 which give you 51 seconds out of every minute of perceptually smooth gameplay on demanding maps. The 9 remaining seconds would be noticeable but only 3 of them would be jarring. 1080p is perceptually jarring at all times.

 

Want to see the difference between 4K and 1080p?

 

 

 

By the way this isn't zoomed in, this is a pixel accurate crop...

 

appeals to authority get you EVERYWHERE in sw. from review scores to gotys to digital foundry. you’re mad af xbox is losing in every conceivable category.

 

the df verdict goes as hand-in-hand with the bulletpoints of a face-off as the review score goes with the content of a review.

 

performance is simply far more impactful than iq at the respective top ends. again just because YOU arent as sensitive to xbox’s juddery shit, doesn’t change the reality’s of it.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Quad Damage

[Quad Damage 1,763]

8 minutes ago, JONBpc said:

Congrats on having the best version of 3 percent of games lmao 

 

in 2019 it’s basically a 50% split but thx for the congrats lmao

[JonDnD 2,698]

8 minutes ago, Quad Damage said:

in 2019 it’s basically a 50% split but thx for the congrats lmao

It's not even close lmfao . Dumbo idiot